Why Atlantis *can't* have Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

[burntcopper]

Okay, there's recently been quite a few posts about the nature of the gay in the US force in Atlantis, several people pointing out that though the civilians are multi-national, the military are US Marines, which equals probable 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' rules, unless all the force sent to Atlantis were the 'problematic' lot, as has been theorised recently by a lot of people - Shep and Rodney being prime examples, followed by Weir and Carson. Problematic could quite easily equal gay for the US military - make sure no chance of trouble, etc. That's the first batch, anyway, until the Daedalus came. With the Daedalus, probable more stringent rules for military at least due to regular influx of new people and trying not to have Caldwell blow a gasket.

However. As of 2x17? (in no way a spoiler) One little detail walks across the screen about 22 minutes in and stays in shot for a good couple of minutes. A soldier in Atlantis gear with a BRITISH FLAG. That's right, the military presence is now *officially* multinational.

Which means, what with the various countries' approach to gays in the military? Atlantis can't have Don't Ask Don't Tell. The UK allows gays in military. The US is one of a slowly shrinking minority that don't, as more countries face up to how fucking impractical it is to lose good soldiers through sexual orientation. Our Prime Minister is rather big on gay rights issues. Our sodding Conservative party is now very big on gay rights and challenges the ruling party for more gay rights and better legislature. The various countries wouldn't let soldiers serve if they'd be discriminated against. (plus, er, not to mention? UK soldiers would be a more sensible choice for Atlantis, as it's mostly a peacekeeping with forays into strike force mission since the Daedalus came along - ours are more focussed on and have more training in peacekeeping than Marines do. It's a large part of our recruitment advertising. Must snicker.) Also, after reading through the literature at the Ministry of Defence? They allow civil partnerships (marriage sans church), which includes pension rights. (see here, section E.1)

I'm now imagining more... er... close-minded ranking members in the SGC lot going 'dammit, only allow soldiers from these countries :

Argentina, Belarus, Brazil, Croatia, Egypt, Greece, Hungary, Iran, Italy, Luxembourg, North Korea, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Venezuela, and Yemen..'

I'm off to snicker.

ETA: add to this South Africans, Germans, Japanese and anyone else people spot in Atlantis. But also note? Several of these countries have no problem with gays in the military, and the ones not on that list up there just can't be bothered to make an issue of it. (Russia wavers a bit, but as long as you're a 'well-adjusted homosexual', you're fine. It's the ones with sexual identity problems they don't want. So no Furries, unless it's wartime and they're desperate for able bodies.)

Comments

[the-drifter.livejournal.com]

Hmm. And from a social politics perspective, I'm not sure that's a list I'm really thrilled my country is included in.

Damn. Because, you know, I was really so thrilled with the US up until now.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

There've been multinational members of the Atlantis military since the pilot, actually. In "Suspicion" you can see military personnel with patches from South Africa and Japan.

[fleurrochard]

*nod* And I think in 'Conversion' there was one soldier with a German patch.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

There's also the Canadian Control Room Guy; we didn't know if he was military or a scientist in the first season, but then in S2, Weir called him "Sergeant".

[burntcopper.livejournal.com]

I'm just feeling sorry for all those don't ask don't tell fics.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume, honestly. The international members of the expedition may not be expected to follow American rules, but the Americans probably still are.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I admit up-front to not being a canon expert on this, but everything I've seen of SG1/SGA indicates that military members of the teams are still members of their militaries. That would mean they are still subject to the U.S. Uniform Code of Military Justice, just as U.S. members of multinational peacekeeping forces on Earth are. That means that American military members of the team would still be governed by the policy.

[arlessiar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, think so too. I remember the South Africa Patch, and there were even more military people from other countries. And being German I remember a German soldier appearing two or three times now (at least in "Conversion" and in "Coup D'etat") :)

[birdsflying]

I was never sure if those ones went through, you sure as hell never see 'em again or at least, not on the offworld teams/in the gateroom. All the usual multinatinals are civilian. I always wanted a screencap of the SAffer but it always moves too fast for me to grab it. Le sigh.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

I was never sure if those ones went through, you sure as hell never see 'em again or at least, not on the offworld teams/in the gateroom.

But you do. In "Suspicion," there are two guards who stop Teyla from going up the steps to Weir's office-- one of them has the South African patch.

[margueritem.livejournal.com]

The Canadian army is all about peacekeeping missions, too!

I think...

Yay for no "Don't ask; don't tell" rules!

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

Yeah, wasn´t there a German soldier guarding Sheppard in ´Conversion´when he was all going wraithy.

That´s when I thought, heh, the military taskforce is multi-national.

But the thing is, if it´s international, just like any military operation each soldier still has to follow the regulations of their own country. UN is prime example, the US still has the same homophobic policy while on a UN peacekeeping mission. Being part of a multi-national operations doesn´t change that.

[rasmizar.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I had spotted one or two soldiers with a German flag in "Conversion" and was a bit surprised about that; but I hadn't really thought about the consequences a multinational military contingent would have regarding DADT...

And having read liviapenn's above comment, I feel I have to pay way more attention to details like that! *lol*

[amireal.livejournal.com]

It's a wonderful thought, except that they still have to stick to their own codes of conduct, especially when the commanding officer is American and access to the project is through an American base and Smerican ship.

So yeah, the foreign officers can fuck whomever they want *if* they so chose, but the American officers still have to stick to their regs.

Also, sadly, removal of the rules does not remove the stigma. In an American-dominated military presence, even those from other countries are going to proceed with distinct caution.

[corinna-5.livejournal.com]

Also, it's worth noting, that the American military almost never allows American forces to serve outside of the US chain of command even in multinational peacekeeping operations, which is a continuing point of conflict with the UN.

So, if we're going to apply standards of realism to a TV show about a giant flying city in another galaxy, the reality is that even if the force is multinational, the US troops would almost undoubtedly still be under the US military regulations.

[(Anonymous)]

I wrote one where it doesn't matter, so I'm ahead right?

[zellieh]

Tahnk you for posting this! *G*

This has always bugged me, because I could never see them enforcing DADT on Atlantis. This is a civilian-led multi-national mission that they know could be a one-way trip from the start.

There has to be a Plan B that would waive all sorts of rules, including things like DADT, which would have been put in place in S1. Because in S1, it looks like they could be stuck there for months/years/the rest of their lives. People are going to start having rerlationships, and the planners wouldn't just ignore that.

[toniabarone.livejournal.com]

Actually, I noticed in Conversion that John's "friend" when he goes to talk to Weir (and subsequently breaks the glass wall) is wearing a German flag patch. Also the first appearance of the Wraith stunner hand guns. At least in use by the Atlanteans.

[zoerayne]

I think you're making a pretty big assumption there, and that is that the American military forces in Atlantis wouldn't be expected to follow American military rules.

Do you have any evidence for how things are handled in a multi-national military operation? I'd love to see some documentation that backs up your assertion; until I do, I'm not going to take as given that anything is a "can't," particularly a subject as controversial as DADT and gays in the military.

[cynicalcylon.livejournal.com]

Just spotted in this fic

“Did you know that there are over 20 nationalities on Atlantis, and that doesn’t include people or Aliens from other worlds. Can you imagine if we followed every rule for every country or planet? We wouldn’t get anything done because everything would be against the law.”

I think that pretty much sums up what the attitude to DADT should be in Atlantis.