:pokes naming conventions:

[burntcopper]

Huh. Most north european countries, when the surname denotes that someone comes from somewhere, stick the equivalent of the prefix 'of' or 'from' in the front - de, van der, von, de la, te, van t', da, di and so on. How the hell did the English escape this? Our language is descended from germanic/dutch/friesian with Norman French laid over the top of it. Was it a post-invasion of Britain by Saxons thing? The only example I can think of is 'a' - and the only actual name I can think of that has it is Allan a Dale, and that's medieval which appears to have died out completely. Cornish uses Pen, Tre and Pol, but that's Celtic, not English.

All the prefixes I can think of in English surnames mean 'son/daughter of', (o', mac/mc, fitz) and they're all other languages, since 'son of' in northern european non-latin non-celt languages tends to be a suffix.

Comments

[silly-swordsman.livejournal.com]

FWIW, in Swedish you'd sometimes have "från", meaning "from", in front, but you could also have the equivalents of "on" or "by". However, these tended to disappear reasonably quickly, so that "John of London" would become "John London".

You could also get a location prefix: "Åsa-Nisse" being "Nisse on the ridge" ("ås" meaning ridge).

My impression is that when you got to know someone for something else than where they were previously from (or what they do), it ceased to be a descriptor and became part of the full name. (Compare with "John the thatcher" becoming "John Thatcher".)

[daegaer.livejournal.com]

Hmm. What's actually know about Saxon naming conventions? Are Saxons all "~son/~sson" and therefore closer to Old Norse? The Celtic languages do tend to have the "son of"/"descendent of" in front ("ó" is a more general "descendent" rather than "son") - including Welsh, which I think you missed ("ap") - so I'm wondering if the Norman "fitz" is in fact influenced by Gallic naming practices to move from its "~son" position to the start of the name instead?

[silly-swordsman.livejournal.com]

Fitz is basically "fils de", i.e. "son of", and was used to acknowledge someone as your illegitimate offspring. "He is my son, but not of my family" sort of thing.

Saxon names can be "son", like Harold Godwinson, but can also be descriptive like Edgar Etheling, or based on locations or professions. In general, they added a "surname" when it was required for precision.

What we think of as surnames were first names of noble/rich/powerful houses/clans/extended families.

[meritjubet.livejournal.com]

It was used sometimes see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility_particle#England_and_Wales) but died out for some reason. Here (http://genealogy.about.com/od/surname_meaning/a/english.htm) it says that At and By are English prefixes.

[snowballjane.livejournal.com]

Perhaps because when the X of Y naming convention was developing, the class of people at court who used it to emphasise that they owned the place in question were using French, so you get de Montforts etc. in England.

Presumably most 'English' speakers at the time travelled rarely, so introducing yourself as Snowballjane of Finchley would result in people going, "Well yes, I'm of Finchley too. We're in Finchley. What are you on about?"

[burntcopper.livejournal.com]

yeah, the only reason you normally had placename of somewhere if you weren't posh was when you'd moved. English is the only one I can find where we don't have the 'of/from' prefix when that happened.

You're right!

[the-magician.livejournal.com]

John of Gaunt was, of course, born in Ghent

The Sheriff of Nottingham, Duke of Buckingham, Anne of Cleaves (or Green Gables) ... not their "real" names, but how we'd describe them in English.

Even in nicknames it's as usual to stick the place name on the front (Portland Bill, Pawatuxet Pete, London Jim).

In non-mobile England/Britain (Britain was "England" for a fair chunk of history, aside from the bits that were separate!) you were indeed "Jim the dogshaggercatcher" or "Ivor the Engine" as you were identified by your job within your community, which is possibly why wives were "Mrs. John Smith" as their role in society was as a wife to a man with a job. And this contracted to John Cooper, Bill Shakespear and so on.

The landed gentry were using titles and so were "Lord of Malmesbury" or "Laird of Kilcatholics" or "Duke of Bassey" and "Earl of Heinz", or even "John, 4th Earl of Greytea", as they were mobile and went to court or abroad, and so where they were from was important.

And the only time nowadays we commonly use "Dave from Birmingham" is in radio phone-ins!

I have no answers, just this posting has been very interesting and thought-provoking ... thank you!

[akadougal.livejournal.com]

Mac/Mc is English?

Man I hate it when I get all Scottish on people. BRITISH plz. I forgive you because its you though.

[burntcopper.livejournal.com]

as in 'people from other cultures who've settled in england'. scots, irish, welsh, cornish, norman french.